COPWATCH.com
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The following exchange took place between two forum participants, one of whom identified himself as a police officer with 20 years experience. It is reproduced here unedited.
Sorry it took me so long to post back. I was out working, filling my quota of citations....no wait, we don't have quotas, we can write as many as we want. And I also have to apologize, your tax dollars didn't go as far today as they should have...I only abused the civil rights of three people. I'm about five short of my goal. I'll work harder for you tomorrow.
Did you here about the guy who failed to stop at the stop sign and was stopped by the police? He said to the cop, "I slowed down". Cop says, "you are supposed to stop". Driver says that he would gladly accept the ticket if the cop could explain the difference between slowing down and stopping. The cop grabs the driver out of the car and starts to wail on him with his nightstick, then the cop says, "you want me to stop or slow down".
Hey, that's a good one. Really.
A cop with a sense of humor. Is this a rare thing?
Or are you really a cop? Somehow your IQ seems higher than most other cops here.
BTW, as I'm sure you know, many departments DO have quotas for tickets. Sure, the cops can issue more, but they MUST at least issue the minimum, even if they have to make up the offenses.
Personally, I always like the one that goes "support your local cops- beat yourself up"
I like that one also...Been an officer almost 21 years if you count military police. And no, I'm not going to get into any discussions about bad cops (no doughnut) or wether it is legal to park on the side of the road and run radar, etc. Of the two civilian agencies I've been a police officer at, we have never had quotas (at least not while I was working there). I did have one sergeant who told me I needed to write more tickets (we do monthly stats), so the next month I wrote exactly one more than I did the previous month. I also like the list my niece sent me about the things you should not say to a cop:
Well, when I reached down to pick up my bag of crack, my gun fell out of my lap and got lodged between the gas pedal and the brake pedal forcing me to speed out of control.
I can't reach my license unless you hold my beer
What do you mean, "Have I been Drinking? You're the trained specialist
So, uh, you on the take or what?
Wow, you look just like t guy in the picture on my girlfriend's nightstand
You're not going to check the trunk, are you?
I was going to be a cop but I decided to finish high school instead.
Hey, you must've been doing 125 MPH to keep up, good job.
Aren't you the guy from the village people?
Hey, is that a 9mm? That's nothing compared to the .44 Magnum
Sorry Officer, I didn't realize my radar detector was not plugged in.
Hope you like those, cause it's like my mom always said. "If you can't make fun of yourself...make fun of other people."
Yeah, those are definately good.
You sound like an intelligent person, and if what you say is true, then you have plenty of experience.
Why, then, avoid the subject of "Bad cops"?
Personally, I'd be very interested in whether, (or, more probably, how often), cops you knew broke the law (and I don't mean spitting on the sidewalk, but more serious offenses of a straightforward criminal or civil-rights nature).
If indeed you are a good cop, then tell us your perspective on this issue. Do you take exception to what this site is doing? If this site were different, would it be more effective in getting rid of bad cops? If so, how?
Seriously
L, I will answer you honestly. Bad cops are out there in almost every department. They are a cancer to those of us who do our job seriously and try to "protect and serve". I would love to see that cancer removed. Just so you know, I'm in a program designed to assist the public with their neighborhoods. I help form neighborhood associations, teach personal safety (or any program the public wants), I go to schools and teach (similiar to DARE), etc. I try to address the pro-active side of policing instead of the re-active.
Why will I not speak about bad cops? I will not on this forum because there are individuals here who believe that any police officer is bad just because of the fact he or she puts on a uniform and badge and is entrusted to uphold the law and serve the community. I will speak on this subject at length on other forums or in person with anyone who asks but as soon as the discussion turns into name-calling and who can over shout who, then I'm done.
I do not take exception to this site!! Our country is based on the principles of checks and balances. If the people of the community (who we work for) do not become involved in what happens in their community then it becomes ripe for corruption. Do I fear this site? No, I welcome it since I have nothing to hide (except my identity for my families sake) I have no IA complaints and will not do anything to ever get one...unless it is a bogus complaint which will be unfounded.
I make jokes about my profession because I can. you gotta have a sense of humor about things. Do I treat everyone like a "King"? no. Do I rob, rape and pillage? Ummm...no!
I do not think this site is effective at all about getting rid of bad cops. This site appears to be someones attempt at sounding off to the authorities. Spray painting "Copwatch.com" graffiti is not going to get bad cops fired. fighting crime by committing crime is not the answer. I urge all persons to attend their city council meetings, attend any police forum in your city, get involved in your community, neighborhood, blockwatch program. Use the public information act to get information. Knowledge is the real power, not ranting on this site. But please continue posting on this site, some of these posts are informative and have good dialogue.
I'll continue to post and add a little cop humor. Sorry in advane for those who might think something I post is not funny, but it's all in good fun.
Later, T
Thanks for the straight answer. Most police I've seen post here try to dismiss the entire issue. If you were to place a rough estimate of the percentage of bad cops, based on your experience, what figure would you select?
I agree with you 100 percent that bad cops are a cancer on their departments. I think they can really pose a serious danger to good cops, by poisening the public attitude against all cops.
I see your point about the responses that are sometimes received here, but, in defense of the more reactionary participants, I'd say that it might justifiably arise from frustration and the inability to achieve any measure of justice or retribution. It seems to me that if a cop abuses his authority and messes with you, and basically manages to get away with it despite all efforts to obtain redress, you might begin to feel like the deck is stacked in favor of bad cops. That frustration could easily translate into forceful rhetoric.
In any event, I appreciate your attitude.
A lot of cops are one-sided. They don't even want to listen to the other side of a story, to include this site. I see things differently probably because I'm older (maybe not wiser) but I've been around the block. I'm not so short-sighted to not understand there are other opinions out there, wether I agree with them or not they are out there and those persons have their right to them. Now when they act upon their opinions in a criminal manner, it is a different ballgame...such as the "Copwatch.com" graffiti for example.
Now, to answer your question; in my time with my current department with just under 1000 officers, I've seen about 20 officers fired for different reasons to include violation of civil rights, theft, narcotics violations, and spousal abuse. But since we are civil service, I've seen several officers get their jobs back due to arbitration (no I personally do not agree with that...they should've remained fired). I've been here when three officers from my department died in the line of duty (plus all the others in my state that I go to their funerals), one officer eat his gun, and several quit because the baggage is too much to handle.
Don't get me wrong, none of this is an excuse...just wanted to get some of that out in the open.
I'm sure there are more cops than what I mentioned earlier that are bad for policing so I'd have to say 5-7% of my department should find another line of work.
I also understand your point of view and some people can get frustrated with the "system" but like I said before, there are avenues you can take, such as a citizens police review board. But I also undersatand the frustration of Law Enforcement officers who arrest the same person for the same crime time and time again yet the court system (here we go with that "system" again) keeps letting them out. It could be a catch-22 sometimes, but the cycle can be broken and a punishment should fit the crime, for both civilian criminals and police officer criminals.
Police are held to a higher standard then the rest of society because we are entrusted with the public peace. We are sworn to uphold the law and I for one take that oath with honor and pride. My dress and appearance is immaculate and my treatment of all persons, wether arrested, suspect, victim or witness is with dignity for that person. That is why I approve of this site and others like it and I welcome all civilian review processes or internal affairs units. I just wish my fellow officers will rise to this level of integrity.
Ok, time I step off my soapbox and give it a rest.
P.S. you know you're a cop when your coffee cup is an IV bottle and you have the bladder capacity of ten people.
Thanks for a thoughtful response.
Let me ask you the following questions, which were raised by my reading of your post.
1- You say that some cops don't want to listen to "our" side of the story, and that you're different, in part perhaps because you're older. Do you notice other negative characteristics of younger cops? Do you think that there should be a minimum age requirement for being a cop? (I mean more than just 18 or 21).
2- You say that 3 of your fellow officers died in the line of duty. Were these deaths actual felonious killings, or accidents? Though I regret the fact of their death regardless of the cause, I've noticed that oftentimes the phrase "died in the line of duty" encompasses virtually all deaths while on shift. What do you think of the tendency to classify any on-duty death as a line of duty death?
3- I assume that the guys who were fired were re-hired as a result of the terms of their union contracts, and were represented by union lawyers at all the hearings. You say that in your opinion they should have remained fired. Do you think that police union contracts should leave disciplinary matters to the government?
4- In your experience, are there negative repurcussions suffered by cops who turn in their fellow cops for misconduct? If so, what type of repercussions are most frequently faced, and do these repercussions result in fewer officers stepping forward to turn in bad cops?
I appreciate your straightforward answers. Like I said previously, I don't make the assumption that all cops are bad, and, so far, it seems like you might be one of those who aren't.
1. Young cops are usually more aggressive, I think because they are trying to prove a point, impress their superiors, the young "stud with a badge" attitude. I think the minimum age should be no lower than 21, but again, it reverts back to the individual department and their hiring process to hire the most responsible, dedicated person that will do the job right.
2. One officer was killed by a passenger during a traffic stop, shot to death. The second officer died in a car accident respoding to a call, and the third officer was hit and killed by a drunk driver while directing traffic at another accident scene. "Died in the line of duty" to me means they died while performing their job in whatever capacity. A suicide or heart attack at home is not line of duty.
3. Yes, rehired by arbitration and represented lawyers. I agree with the union contract but after several violations of the law and they are getting their job back...makes me poud to serve with those officers (heavy sarcasim). I don't think the government should say who stays and who goes solely, but having a slick lawyer circumvent the system and that certain officer stays on the force undermines the trust and security the community has in its police force.
4. I know of several officers who were not demoted, but put in undesirable positions due to stepping forward. a lawsuit corrected that but I do agree that few officers want to step forward, not only fear of retribution but also the fear of ostracism. The brother-in-law system runs deep in some departments. If something came up at my department and I had to speak out, I would, but I'd probably resign and move to another department due to the resentment, criticism, and retaliation that would haunt me and my family.
I know a lot of officers like myself, who want to serve their community and care about the people, but we have so many prejudices to overcome.
Also, did you know that 80% of police calls come from only 20% of the community....got that stat from one of those fuzzy community police classes I took.
Also I'm sure you understand that what I say on this forum is my own opinion and does not represent that of any other officer or any other department.
Heya, T- hope your still checking this forum...
Sorry to take so long to respond to your previous post. Again, I really appreciate the candor and forthrightness of your response.
I don't want to make too big a deal about this point, since I don't want to discount the sorrow that accompanies most any death, regardless of the cause, but in regards to "line of duty" deaths, it seems to me that this phrase, at least as the public at large understands it, means that the officer died while engaged in some type of work that is at least marginally heroic, or inherently dangerous, or, at the very least, involves the active pursuit of a specialized skill or duty.
When I read of the death of an officer who fell asleep at the wheel, or tripped and fell over a curb, I am reluctant to descibe that as a "line of duty" death. After all, lots of people in all sorts of occupations die on the job every day, and they are not accorded any special ceremony above and beyond that which is accorded any other person. When is the last time there was a televised funeral of a cab driver, accompanied by a corp of highland bagpipers playing "Amazing Grace", and a funeral hall full of other taxi drivers who had all taken the day off, and somber newscasters talking about the tragedy of it all?
I dont think that such a scene has ever been broadcast, even when the taxi driver has been feloniously shot in the head and robbed.
With reference to cops being rehired, with the assistance of the union, after being fired for misconduct, my question is this: Given your experience, what would be an appropriate means of preventing these "bad apples" from slipping throught the loopholes and getting rehired?
Similarly, can you suggest any means of getting rid of the "blue wall of silence"? Personally, I would hate to be the situation you described, and truly admire good cops who have the guts to step forward and face the consequences of turning in bad cops.
When you say that there are many good officer such as yourself who care about the people and want to serve their community, but they face many prejudices, my question is this: does the prejudice to which you refer emanate from bad cops, or from the community?
L - long time no hear. thot you had left for good. I'm still here, just not posting. Not much here to answer except psycho-babble from both camps.
I've been to several funerals and the ones that bring out the most cops are the funerals for officers who were murdered (while on duty) by a criminal. They have come from as far away as several states. A retired officer that dies of natural causes gets a funeral by their department and usually only that department shows up and it is a small affair.
There is no definition for "line of duty". I agree tht line of duty means some type of heroic action, not falling asleep at the wheel, or tripping over a curb. But I assume accidents like that happen and that department will honor their officer.
I did block traffic once for a taxicab driver who was murdered and the line of taxi's followed by police and EMS vehicles in the funeral procession was as long as any officer's I had seen. I guess it depends on the city and the outpouring of love and concern for the deceased by the citizenry.
I can not answer your question about bad apples slipping through the loopholes because I just do not know.
The "blue wall of silence" appears to come down slowly every day. Very few officers are willing to risk their careers and their reputation for a fellow officer that has done wrong. Through training and time, the wall will come down and corrupt officers will be dealt with.
The prejuidices I face come mostly from the community which I serve. You talk about the "blue wall of silence" coming down slowly. I'm trying to break down generations of prejuidices towards police that families have grown up with. When a child grows up hearing that police are bad, and they finally see a police officer, they believe him to be bad. How do I change that? When another police officer proves themselves to be bad, and the community sees that, how do I change their perception of me?
I deal with prejudice every day on the job. One thing I really don't like is when I go into a store or someplace in uniform and a child is acting up, and the parent says, "you better straighten up or the police officer is going to take you to jail". I walk right over to that child and kneel down and tell them, "it's not against the law for you to cry, and I will not take you to jail for being a child." Then I usually get up, give the parent a "go-to-heck" look and go about my business. and by the way, it's not funny when I walk into a business in uniform, and someone jumps up and says "It wasn't me" while placing their hands on the wall.
Sorry, I ramble sometimes. Glad to hear from you. I tried to answer your questions honestly (maybe not the answers everyone wants to hear) but answers just the same.
Yours in Public Service, T
Thanks for another honest and informative response. Glad you're sticking around.
I can understand your reaction to the parent who says something like that to their kid. Beyond the fact that it might cause the kid to fear cops, it is also kind of impolite, I think. It's like using a person as a prop.
In your experience, is the prejudice you face from the community a function of that particular community, or is it something that is pervasive throughtout society in general? If it arises from the specific community, what kind of community is it?
I think that negative perceptions of cops often arise from an accumulation of a bunch of relatively minor experiences, that the cops involved may not think are at all out of line.
I remember in high school health class a cop came in and gave a speech for some reason (I really can't recall the purpose of his visit, though it was probably intended to convince us not to drink and drive or do drugs or something like that). What I do remember as clear as day is when he started swinging around his club, (the kind that has a handle protruding at a 90 degree angle), and informed us, apropos of absolutely nothing, and in a very aggressive tone of voice, that he could break a kneecap or an arm with one blow. My immediate reaction, which of course I suppressed, was "go ahead and try, you fucking asshole". Perhaps that reaction was due to my presumably unique personality, or perhaps not. For all I know, that part of his lecture was approved by his superiors, in the hopes of putting the fear of the law into a bunch of supposed stoners.
Another time, also in high school, I was driving along and approached a red stoplight. I was going to make a right, so I bypassed the line of waiting cars by driving along the 5 foot wide shoulder. Sure enough, I got pulled over. Of course I wasn't ecstatic about this, but I had violated the law, and technically deserved a ticket. And it's not my style to argue with a cop at the scene, since it never gets you anywhere. So I was prepared to take a ticket. What I was not prepared to take was the behavior of the cop, who came storming up to my window and literally screamed at me, asking what the hell I thought I was doing, and was I a moron, etc. What can you do- I just sat there and took it, and a ticket.
Of course, I don't necessarily expect you to believe these stories. But they did happen, and they did effect my perception of cops in general. Admittedly, neither incident was a very big deal, but little things add up.
Again, I mention these incidents merely to try to explain why many people may have a negative view of the cops.
I can't believe that my experiences are too uncommon.
I believe you are right on in your perception. I never thought of it like that. A lot of little things that some officers don't think of as a big deal adds up to a negative perception. That is so true.
It would be like the child who is called stupid once too often...he now believes he is stupid.
Reminds me of a saying by R.D. Laing, "I am not who I think I am. I am not who you think I am. I am who I think you think I am."
I do believe your stories. I think the first officer was trying to put the fear factor into the students. Very few students will respond to the fear factor, most see it as
a challenge and come away with the attitude like you had (the: "try it, I dare you" attitude). Most teenagers will respond to the truth and respect approach. Tell them why it's wrong and why they shouldn't do it but be honest with them. I work with teenagers and they know where I stand. They know they can call on me any time day or night and I will assist them, but when they break the law and get arrested, my assistance is gone (not from the standpoint I hate them now, but once in the system, I can't do anything to influence their outcome). They understand and respect that. They know I'm there for them if they need help, but they know I'll be the first one to put handcuffs on them and take them to jail if need be.
I couldn't explain what the deal was with the second officer. You are right, you broke the law (driving on improved shoulder, passing on the right). But why the hystrionics? unknown!
I don't think your experiences are uncommon, and I do not believe most police officers relate their actions to persons perceptions. I am going to bring this up to our training academy and see if they can incorporate this into the ethics class or some where in the syllabus.
