UNEDITED EXCERPTS FROM
THE DISCUSSION FORUM
All of the following posts have been copied directly from our discussion forum. The parties referenced and/or addressed in these messages are other participants in the forum.
Here is a link to a running exchange between two forum participants, one of whom represents himself to be an experienced police officer. It's regrettable that more cops aren't as rational. If you believe that all cops are stupid assholes, this is a must-read.
Immediately below is a two-part exchange which is deserving of particular attention, since it reveals with unusual clarity the ideological differences between police-state supporters and police-state opponents. (Following that is a selection of other posts).
What are you guys smoking? You want to coddle the criminals, and hamstring us cops? We're here to protect you, and make many sacrifices to do so. If we were forced to abide by the ridiculous "reforms" that you suggest, who would want to be a cop? It would be too intrusive and invasive.
This self-serving opinion deserves a line by line examination and response:
"What are you guys smoking?"
[TRANSLATION: If you have a different opinion than the police, you must be a drug user.]
"You want to coddle the criminals, and hamstring us cops?"
[TRANSLATION: There are only two groups in America: criminals and cops.
Yes, the cops must be very hamstrung, after all, they only have:
- Vast Federal, State, County and City funds and resources, numbering in the hundreds of billions of dollars annually, plus,
- Absolute and qualified immunity from prosecution for their actions and inactions, plus,
- The direct support and protection of all city attorneys, district attorneys, state attorney general, and all of their support staffs and other government personnel, plus,
- Interagency cooperation, support and shared resources with: city police, county sheriffs, state patrol, FBI, ATF, US Marshals, DEA, Secret Service, Border Patrol, Coast Guard, US Customs Service, National Guard, tribal police, etc., etc.,
- and finally, the vast majority of laws, administrative codes, municipal regulations and supreme court decisions all favoring police and law enforcement concerns at the expense of individual liberty, dignity and privacy.
"We're here to protect you, and make many sacrifices to do so."
1. A policeman, who has extensive weapons training, and is routinely armed with a semi-automatic handgun with high capacity clips, mace, a baton/nightstick/tonfa, a semi-automatic/pump action shotgun, and a high voltage stun weapon is more defenseless than an unarmed citizen.
2. A policeman, with extensive defensive capabilities, possessing handcuffs and shackles and the legal permission to use them, wearing a federally subsidized bullet proof vest, and who is trained and experienced in the use of "carotid control holds", "joint breaking techniques" and other "submission holds" is more vulnerable than a citizen who possesses none of the above, and who is banned by law from using most of the above.
3. A policeman, who is never more than a single code-word away from immediate and overwhelming personal support and protection by an army of other policemen, all using the latest in high tech communications equipment is more alone than a citizen who is banned by law from using or possessing the same equipment to summon help.
4. Being a "cop" is a conscious career choice. It is a job. It is a paid job. It is not charity work. Cops don't work for free. Government jobs offer some of the best retirement pay, health benefits, employee support and job security available in America. Being a cop is a job, not a divine mission.
Current police training, policies and practices actually put the safety of the police officer above that of all other citizens. The more infamous examples of police putting their own safety above the safety of citizens include the following sacrifices:
-The Reginald Denny beating, which was ignored by police who retreated for their own safety, although they were present in formidable enough numbers to effect a rescue.
-The death of teacher William D. Sanders and two students who bled to death while waiting four hours for the police to "deem it safe to enter" during the Columbine shootings.
-Just last week, during Mardi Gras in Seattle, with over 350 police officers deployed in riot gear and body armor in the immediate area, a woman was attacked by a group of people and the only person who came to her aid was Kristopher Kime, a civilian. He was then attacked and knocked unconscious, and it was a group of off-duty firefighters that carried him to safety, not the police. Kristopher Kime died as a result of the attack. According to the Seattle Times Newspaper, "The police remained about a block away and left the fights to resolve themselves". Final Score: Civilians: 1 killed while trying to rescue a stranger, 70 other injured. Police casualties: 1 broken arm and 1 facial bruise. So much for "We're here to protect you, and make many sacrifices to do so."
The most any policeman can "sacrifice" is his or her life. The most any victim of a crime can sacrifice is his or her life. To suggest that the life of a policeman is worth more than the life of a crime victim is not only ludicrous, it is insulting. It fosters the false assumption that one person is more important than another due to their choice of jobs. If you are a policeman and see your career choice as just sacrifices and not a privilege, then you really need to take a look at yourself and accept that your job description is "civil servant", or simply choose another line of work. ]
"If we were forced to abide by the ridiculous "reforms" that you suggest, who would want to be a cop?"
[TRANSLATION: We are superior to ordinary citizens. It's not fair to treat us as equals to mere citizens. We don't want to have to answer to the same laws. If we can't be superior, we don't want to play.
Besides, if the "reforms" objected to are so ridiculous, why were they not listed and criticized individually and constructively?]
Now, to answer that hypothetical question about who would want to be a cop, let's take a psychological look at who wants to be a cop now:
- The kids in school who were smaller or different, and as such were the constant victims of bullies. Being a cop is my chance to never get picked on again... and/or Being a cop is my chance to be the bully.
- The kids in school were bullies, and want a license to bully. Hey, you get to carry a badge, club and gun! Even better, all the other bullies (and the good, honest and moral cops as well) have to cover for you because of the "blue wall of silence" rule that no one dares to violate, even if they don't like you or what you have done.
- Excitement junkies and control freaks.
- The kids whose dad/mom are a cop, and want to be exactly like dad/mom.
- The kids who look up to cops or were helped or rescued by cops and want to emulate their hero.
- Those kids and adults who were victimized or abused by immoral, abusive or brutal cops and want to become cops to "do it right" and make a difference.
- Those kids and adults who are interested in police work and want a steady, reliable job.
- Those who think that being a cop would mean helping people, and they want a job helping people.
- Those who believe so firmly in the need and value of police work that they would want to be cops no matter the cost.
In short, there will always be people who want to be cops. Suggesting that no one would want to be a cop if there are reforms to police behavior and procedures is totally without merit. More importantly, those undesirable categories of people who want to become cops may be deterred from swelling the ranks by more instituting more accountability and less discretionary powers for the police.]
"It would be too intrusive and invasive."
[TRANSLATION: The police do not want to be held to the same standard as ordinary citizens. There are no laws that place equal, let alone more restrictions on police officers than ordinary citizens. To suggest that reforms would be too "intrusive and invasive" demonstrates the familiar condescending attitude of many police towards citizens and suggests that citizens cannot be trusted, are not intelligent enough or informed enough to evaluate, monitor, or in any way control police officers.
Without defining what reforms would be "too intrusive and invasive", it is impossible to know what this person is objecting to specifically.
Armed with an unending supply of search warrants, no-knock warrants, pat-down laws, strip searches, asset seizure laws and the ridiculously over broad, overused and all-encompassing "probable cause" laws that end up being a cure-all to any cop who wants to invade any and every aspect of any citizen's life, any cop complaining that ANYTHING is "too intrusive and invasive" is hypocritical and idiotic beyond human comprehension.
As for even using the phrase: "It would be too intrusive and invasive", the standard reply using the typical police perspective would be - 'If you object, you must doing something wrong. What have you got to hide?'
We need more laws against police abuse, need to seriously limit police discretionary powers, reverse the legislative propoganda that fosters the belief that drugs and crime justify the loss of personal privacy and freedom. Most importantly, police need to quit segregating themselves from the rest of society with outdated, false beliefs like "the thin blue line" and "the blue wall of silence" and "the brotherhood" and "us against them". "Too intrusive and invasive"? It's our decision. You work for us. Remember that. ]
I recently locked my keys in my car. An officer escorted me home to get a
spare set of keys. When we returned to the car I forgot my money to get the
car out of the parking area. The officer payed my storage fee for me. I
offered to pay but he refused.
Where would our society be if it was not for the brave men and women in blue.
My thanks to the Edgewater Colorado Police Department for a caring and
professional job well done.
Just out of curiosity, please tell me if I am correct in making the
following assumptions- you are a youngish single female (as your email
address, which is a number prefaced with "SF", would indicate), good looking, with large breasts. The only
other alternative is that you are a frail grandmotherly type.
The cop who assisted you was male, as you indicated.
Did he get anything out of this act of samaritanism aside from an
enhanced sense of gallantry?
Let me ask you also:
Do you honestly believe that the same treatment would have been afforded
a fat ugly old hag?
Or offered to you by a female officer (assuming she wasn't a lesbian)?
Also, as the opponents of this site are fond of pointing out, there's
a few bad apples in every bushel. I contend that the opposite is
true: there's a few good apples in every bushel. Just because you
may have found a decent cop looking to get laid says nothing about other cops.
You obviously have a insecurity complex. Did you take behavioral medication
as a child or did your parents beat you.
As your e-mail would indicated you must be a little man with a small penis (
in other words a fudge packing slagger.)
People like yourself are a waste to society. Good day!!!!!!
Why do you take such offense at my innocent questions?
I must have hit very close to home. Clearly, I was correct in making at least one assumption- you are a female.
Try to fit this concept in your pretty little head: what the cop did for you is no different than any random valet parking attendant would have done. Hell, if you look like I described, I might have helped you out myself (and I am definitely not a cop).
Why, in your opinion, should we get excited about a guy trying to pick up a girl? Why should we accord that guy any respect just because he's wearing a uniform and carrying a gun when he hits on her?
Do you get hit on so infrequently that each rare instance is a special occasion which requires all of society to feel grateful?
The mere fact that some females get weak-kneed around any masculine authority figure, particularly if a gun is involved, is no reason for the rest of society to get down on its knees as well. (The sexual psychology behind this subordinate female/protective male phenomenon is extensive and well-documented).
On the other hand, if the cop had risked his life doing something that your average parking-lot-attendant might not have done, such as interrupting a gang-rape, catching a mugger, or preventing a bank robbery, then I'd say that he deserved some respect.
As it is, he was just being a regular guy, doing a regular guy thing, like most other males in society. Nothing brave about it.
I am sick and tired of having to defend myself, my buddies, and my field, when in reality its something that should be honored and respected. Officers make sacrifices on a daily basis most of you couldn't conceive of. WHat is it you are trying to accomplish here? Police Brutality is an gross exaggeration. People like you are more concerned with the rights of perpetrators and criminals than you are the rights of law enforcement officials or victims. I presume most of you are probably teenagers, and if you aren't its time to grow out of your anti-authority phase. Everyone wants to play the fuckin martyr, and be the poor victim. (See M-u-m-i-a) Im sick of it. Why does no one get up in arms when an officer is killed in the line of duty? We are not the enemy folks. And we do not make the laws. If you don't like them...write your senators...or better yet GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE COUNTRY. Im sick and tired of little punks like you dragging our profession through the mud. Get your facts straight. I don't know if there are any other officers that come to this board or not, but if you are an officer reading this. These are the type of scumbags you gotta look out for. Do-nothing losers who are just waiting to play the martyr, and relinquish any responsibilty for their actions.
Poor little piggy, wawawawawawa I have heard this crap before pig. Your a liar just like your pig brothers.
Lie #1) Our job is so dangereous; Really then why is the workmen comp rate for police only $5 per $100? Many other proffesions are much more dangereous than yours and you don't see any of us on this board whining do ya?
Lie#2) We serve and protect; You serve and protect yourself pig. Cops cannot logistically protect anyone from anything, you cops show up after the murder, after the rape, after the theft, after the crime. If you could stop a crime before it occured there would be no rape, murder, theft or any crime. We cannot afford to have more cops on every corner.
#3) We are a detterent to crime; Bullshit,we have seen the prison population triple in this country in just twenty years and the crime rate has remained constant only going down and up marginally in correlation to the economy and the population increase.
I call these three lies the big three. No one twisted your arm cop to choose your profession, I am not interested in paying taxes so you can whine and snivel. I want my money back you socialist puke. This is my country and I do not plan on going anywhere pig, try and make me. I'm here to stay live with it.
Don't threaten me you gutless wonder, stop hiding behind your badge punk and get a real job.
Some call it POLICE BRUTALITY, I CALL IT REASONABLE FORCE. Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God.2 Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgement upon themselves.3 For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it, for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; IT IS THE SERVANT OF GOD TO INFLICT WRATH ON THE EVILDOER.
Humanity many times has had sad the experience of super-powerful police forces. As soon as the police slip out from under the firm thumb of a suspicious local tribune, they become arbitrary, merciless, a law unto themselves. They think no more of justice, but only of establishing themselves as a privileged and envied elite. They mistake the attitude of natural caution and uncertainty of the civilian population as admiration and respect, and presently they start to swagger back and forth, jingling their weapons in megalomaniac euphoria. People thereupon become not masters, but servants. Such a police force becomes merely an aggregate of uniformed criminals, the more baneful in that their position is unchallenged and sanctioned by law. The police mentality cannot regard a human being in terms other than as an item or object to be processed as expeditiously as possible. Public convenience or dignity means nothing; police prerogatives assume the status of divine law. Submissiveness is demanded. If a police officer kills a civilian, it is a regrettable circumstance, the officer probably overzealous but justified. If a civilian kills a police officer all hell breaks loose. The police foam at the mouth. All other business comes to a standstill until the perpetrator of this most dastardly act is found out. Inevitable, when apprehended, he is beaten or otherwise tortured for his intolerable presumption. The police complain that they cannot function efficiently, that criminals escape them. Better a hundred unchecked criminals than the despotism of one unbridled police force!
FIRST OF ALL THE CONSTITUTION AND THE ADMENDMENTS OF THIS COUNTRY NEED A MAJOR FACE LIFT. MOST OF THEM WERE WRITTEN IN THE LATE 1700'S WHEN PEOPLE HAD RESPECT. THEY JUST ARE NOT PRATICAL IN THIS DAY AND AGE. PEOPLE SUCH AS YOURSELF AND THE TRUE CRIMINAL MIND HIDE BEHIND THEM (O.J. SIMPSON) BUT I GUESS YOU THINK HE IS INNOCENT ANYWAY. THEY NEED TO BE CHANGED. YOU WILL END UP IN JAIL AGAIN SOME DAY SIR BECAUSE OF YOUR LACK OF SITE. IT ALSO SEEMS TO ME THAT YOU THINK THE POLICE ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT VIOLATE CIVIL RIGHTS. WHAT ABOUT THE CRIMINALS? DON'T THEY VIOLATE THE GENERAL PUBLICS RIGHTS? OH I FORGOT THERE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. ANOTHER RIDICULOUS RIGHT.EVEN IF THERE CAUGHT RED HANDED WITH SOME POOR OLD WOMANS POCKET BOOK IN THEIR HANDS. YOUR JUST AN ANGRY LITTLE PEE ON COLLEGE STUDENT THAT THE POLICE PEPPER MACED DURING A RIOT.
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